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Jan Panteltje
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject:
Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
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Article in German:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/66219
No real transmissions will start on Prosieben on December 3.
There are n oreceivers.
However, KCN One reports PC TV DVB-S2 cards are coming as
soon as STM can deliver sufficient decoder chips.
Premiere is also holding back on some thousand? redcievers and
want to use this perios to test for possible reception problems
with the new system.
Only those customers who have shown an interst in HDTV will get
boxes...
OK
;-) |
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HJK
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:29 am Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
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"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlf8jt$uml$1@news.datemas.de...
| Quote: | Article in German:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/66219
No real transmissions will start on Prosieben on December 3.
There are n oreceivers.
However, KCN One reports PC TV DVB-S2 cards are coming as
soon as STM can deliver sufficient decoder chips.
|
ALL manufacturers is waiting for hardware DVB-S2/MPEG-4&MPEG-2 chipsets. |
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Jan Panteltje
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
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On a sunny day (Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:29:18 +0100) it happened "HJK"
<nospam_notrealemail@online.no> wrote in <EbqdnZeT3_QV5-be4p2dnA@telenor.com>:
| Quote: |
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlf8jt$uml$1@news.datemas.de...
Article in German:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/66219
No real transmissions will start on Prosieben on December 3.
There are n oreceivers.
However, KCN One reports PC TV DVB-S2 cards are coming as
soon as STM can deliver sufficient decoder chips.
ALL manufacturers is waiting for hardware DVB-S2/MPEG-4&MPEG-2 chipsets.
Advantage for PC cards is that you do not need the hardware mpeg4 decoder chip, |
only the 9/10 FEC stuff.
> |
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HJK
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:08 am Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
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"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlg48t$sf3$1@news.datemas.de...
| Quote: | ALL manufacturers is waiting for hardware DVB-S2/MPEG-4&MPEG-2 chipsets.
Advantage for PC cards is that you do not need the hardware mpeg4 decoder
chip,
only the 9/10 FEC stuff.
|
Disadvantage is that you will need a wery fast CPU in your computer for
decoding MPEG-4 HD. With MPEG4 hardware
decoder on the PC card the computer CPU does not need to be that fast. |
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HJK
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
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"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlkrdm$va1$1@news.datemas.de...
| Quote: | On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:39:55 +0100) it happened "HJK"
nospam_notrealemail@online.no> wrote in
dPWdnWRMQ_ra6uDe4p2dnA@telenor.com>:
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlg48t$sf3$1@news.datemas.de...
ALL manufacturers is waiting for hardware DVB-S2/MPEG-4&MPEG-2 chipsets.
Advantage for PC cards is that you do not need the hardware mpeg4
decoder
chip,
only the 9/10 FEC stuff.
Disadvantage is that you will need a wery fast CPU in your computer for
decoding MPEG-4 HD. With MPEG4 hardware
decoder on the PC card the computer CPU does not need to be that fast.
Yes, I have a SkyStar1 with hardware mpeg2 decoder, and wintvnova that
needs
software to do it.
But these days 2GHz is normal no? Should be plenty if AMD processor to do
it in software.
|
I have a 3GHz P4 which struggles to decode MPEG2 HD at 18Mbit/s so
MPEG-4 HD will be 3-4 times more CPU demanding.
I did read a posting somewhere about a problem with software decoding
14Mbit/s MPEG-4 HD and on the same PC/CPU MPEG-2 18Mbit/s HD
softwaredecoding did work.
I have not tested MPEG-4 HD software decoder my self. Its must be CPU
available of doing
MPEG-4 HD but 2Ghz might not do the job. |
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Jan Panteltje
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
|
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:39:55 +0100) it happened "HJK"
<nospam_notrealemail@online.no> wrote in <dPWdnWRMQ_ra6uDe4p2dnA@telenor.com>:
| Quote: |
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dlg48t$sf3$1@news.datemas.de...
ALL manufacturers is waiting for hardware DVB-S2/MPEG-4&MPEG-2 chipsets.
Advantage for PC cards is that you do not need the hardware mpeg4 decoder
chip,
only the 9/10 FEC stuff.
Disadvantage is that you will need a wery fast CPU in your computer for
decoding MPEG-4 HD. With MPEG4 hardware
decoder on the PC card the computer CPU does not need to be that fast.
Yes, I have a SkyStar1 with hardware mpeg2 decoder, and wintvnova that needs |
software to do it.
But these days 2GHz is normal no? Should be plenty if AMD processor to do
it in software. |
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Jan Panteltje
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
|
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:57:08 +0100) it happened "HJK"
<nospam_notrealemail@online.no> wrote in <OJ-dnZ8t_ahKZODe4p2dnA@telenor.com>:
| Quote: | Yes, I have a SkyStar1 with hardware mpeg2 decoder, and wintvnova that
needs
software to do it.
But these days 2GHz is normal no? Should be plenty if AMD processor to do
it in software.
I have a 3GHz P4 which struggles to decode MPEG2 HD at 18Mbit/s so
MPEG-4 HD will be 3-4 times more CPU demanding.
I did read a posting somewhere about a problem with software decoding
14Mbit/s MPEG-4 HD and on the same PC/CPU MPEG-2 18Mbit/s HD
softwaredecoding did work.
I have not tested MPEG-4 HD software decoder my self. Its must be CPU
available of doing
MPEG-4 HD but 2Ghz might not do the job.
|
Interesting, I have a Duron 950 here, that uses mplayer or xine in Linux
and does the whole 720x576 sat thing in real time no problem with time to
spare (it runs a server too).
It also does display DivX (4, 5) no problem at that size.
When the French Hotbird demos were on, in mpeg2, I did try the decoding,
but it would need that 2GHz to keep up.
However you can re-scale, then it does work.
I am not sure, but now very curious, how much more decoding power is needed
for the new 'mpeg4' (it is some special variant ?), indeed may have
to buy a new PC for that, let's wait until these cards are in the shops...
There is an other reason too, not to want the mpeg4 decoder chip on the card,
as we have seen with SkyStar1 and the TI chip (7110) I do NOT want the
transport stream f*ced up, that is why I use the Nova now, clean TS.
Also I am curious about prices and Linux driver support for these cards....
and if they will make data available to even be able to write a Linux driver.
Interesting.
It is possible that mplayer will play that format already..
Any demo files around? |
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HJK
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
|
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:dll0i8$6b4$1@news.datemas.de...
| Quote: |
Interesting, I have a Duron 950 here, that uses mplayer or xine in Linux
and does the whole 720x576 sat thing in real time no problem with time to
spare (it runs a server too).
|
MPEG2 standard definition should not be a problem with 2GHz as most channels
use
quite poor quality bitrate far below 10Mbit/s.
| Quote: | It also does display DivX (4, 5) no problem at that size.
|
DivX is a different format compared to MPEG-4 that is going to be used with
DVB-S2.
| Quote: | When the French Hotbird demos were on, in mpeg2, I did try the decoding,
but it would need that 2GHz to keep up.
However you can re-scale, then it does work.
With re-scaling you will not get HD I suppose... |
| Quote: | I am not sure, but now very curious, how much more decoding power is
needed
for the new 'mpeg4' (it is some special variant ?)
|
Its a special variant of MPEG-4 called ACV H.264. There are wery many levels
of MPEG-4 and it is
level 10 that will be used accoring to the EBU technical web pages (one of
the best sources
for good information about the subject)
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_home.html
The MPEG-4 codecs which exists for computers is probably not level 10 but
some earlier lower levels.
| Quote: | , indeed may have
to buy a new PC for that, let's wait until these cards are in the shops...
There is an other reason too, not to want the mpeg4 decoder chip on the
card,
as we have seen with SkyStar1 and the TI chip (7110) I do NOT want the
transport stream f*ced up, that is why I use the Nova now, clean TS.
|
MPEG-4 is 4 times more complex to decode compared to MPEG-2 and in addition
to
that HD at good quality will probably increase the demand for CPU speed even
more.
What the EBU papers indicates is that the CPU probably must be 4 times
faster than
the CPU requirement for MPEG-2
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_302-sunna.pdf
| Quote: | Also I am curious about prices and Linux driver support for these
cards....
and if they will make data available to even be able to write a Linux
driver.
Interesting.
It is possible that mplayer will play that format already..
|
Could be but so far I dont think there only has been tests by Premiere
and Sky in the new format ( MPEG-4 part 10 & DVB-S2) and those tests
has not been available for the public. |
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Jan Panteltje
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:
Re: Start DVB-S2 programs further delayed |
|
|
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:23:49 +0100) it happened "HJK"
<nospam_notrealemail@online.no> wrote in <GOmdnSOILInXt-Pe4p2dnA@telenor.com>:
| Quote: | DivX is a different format compared to MPEG-4 that is going to be used with
DVB-S2.
Yes I know, we are talking H-264 variants. |
The HP (4:2:0 8bit), Hi10P (4:2:0 10bit), H422P (4:2:2 10 bits), and H444P
(4:4:4 12 bits) .... the last ones seem a bit much for TV in home....
Personally I do not see much use in 12 bits unles you had some super screen
with super eyes, man even 8 bits greyscale is more then I can see.
And they are going to send 'Goldfinger' from celluloid with all the noise
and scratches through it anyways ... ;-)
Na, for a studio perhaps...
I just did some source code digging,. first in mplayer, but I think mplayer
will perhaps use ffmpeg.
Looking at the latest (last weeks..) ffmpeg CVS sources, doing a 'grep'
(search), I find:
panteltje:/video/compile/ffmpeg/ffmpeg-cvs-2005-11-13# grep -r "4:2:0" *
doc/ffmpeg-doc.texi:@item PGMYUV @tab X @tab X @tab PGM with U and V components in YUV 4:2:0
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUV420P, ///< Planar YUV 4:2:0 (1 Cr & Cb sample per 2x2 Y samples)
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUVJ420P, ///< Planar YUV 4:2:0 full scale (jpeg)
libavcodec/lcl.c: av_log(avctx, AV_LOG_INFO, "Image type is YUV 4:2:0.\n");
libavcodec/mpeg12.c: put_bits(&s->pb, 2, 1); //chroma format 4:2:0
libavcodec/vc9.c: int chromaformat; ///< 2bits, 2=4:2:0, only defined
libavcodec/vc9.c: "Only 4:2:0 chroma format supported\n");
Binary file libavcodec/lcl.o matches
Binary file libavcodec/libavcodec.a matches
Binary file libavcodec/libavcodec.so matches
panteltje:/video/compile/ffmpeg/ffmpeg-cvs-2005-11-13# grep -r "4:2:2" *
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUV422P, ///< Planar YUV 4:2:2 (1 Cr & Cb sample per 2x1 Y samples)
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUVJ422P, ///< Planar YUV 4:2:2 full scale (jpeg)
libavcodec/lcl.c: av_log(avctx, AV_LOG_INFO, "Image type is YUV 4:2:2.\n");
Binary file libavcodec/lcl.o matches
Binary file libavcodec/libavcodec.a matches
Binary file libavcodec/libavcodec.so matches
panteltje:/video/compile/ffmpeg/ffmpeg-cvs-2005-11-13# grep -r "4:4:4" *
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUV444P, ///< Planar YUV 4:4:4 (1 Cr & Cb sample per 1x1 Y samples)
libavcodec/avcodec.h: PIX_FMT_YUVJ444P, ///< Planar YUV 4:4:4 full scale (jpeg)
libavformat/yuv4mpeg.c: av_log(s, AV_LOG_ERROR, "Cannot handle 4:4:4:4 YUV4MPEG stream.\n");
Looks like much of the stuff is there, but things will probably need work.
As for speed ffmpeg is VERY fast. do not worry... 2 GHz I say!
(on AMD, 10GHz on Intel of cause).
Hopefully the ffmpeg guys will code this, this is not my specialist field,
so I cannot help them, but nevertheless I run some of my subtitle utilities
through this... but 12 bits? You got me there.
Are there 12 bits graphics cards?
Mine is 3 x 8 (+ 8 empty) bits.
So all processing in 12 bits, and then display in 24?
Whatdoyouknow.
With 'example movies' I did mean these mpeg4 levels on the net, not transmissions,
just to test decoding and display.
Tell you what, industry (and I hope they are reading) has gone mad.
I remember the start of color TV in the Netherlands in 1967.
Actually I had some things to do with that.
There was big exibition (Firato), and Philips had plenty of color sets...
Public was properly informed, quality was good, it all happend smoothly.
These days there is no more respect for the customer whatsover.
Any half idiot can dream up a new standard and start transmitting in it.
Nothing is compatible with nothing.. DRM f*cks up every decent electronics.
Look at the Sony music CDs that install root kits on windows Xp.
No, these guys have (because they need 10% growth a year) completely lost
sight of the customer, these are for them just a dumping place for equipment
that is outdated with one or 2 years so they can then sell you new stuff.
This is NOT the way to treat people.
Take note guys, it is going to backfire big time if people stop buying,
think DVD formats (blue light what not), different box for EVERYTHING.
So then it would come down again to using only a PC like platform, and
everybody giving the required soft with their product.
No, suing people who share some music files... while making 1000% profit per
CD or DVD pressed, same ridiculous prices Microsoft charges for a copy of
their OS.
The prices should be regulated to represent material cost plus some small
percentage ... If you sell 100 million copies of the same soft the price
should be 1 / 10 million perhaps of what it is now, windows Xp for the price
of the download or DVD + 10 cent (already a lot).
That would regulate things!
Digital is here to stay, and as capacity of media increaes soon all Hollywood
ever made will fit on one medium.
Then they are out.
Anyways somebody will invent the 'replicator' (Startrek), and then we will
all have everything... believe it? Yes the replicator ... No equality! :-)
CU
| Quote: | When the French Hotbird demos were on, in mpeg2, I did try the decoding,
but it would need that 2GHz to keep up.
However you can re-scale, then it does work.
With re-scaling you will not get HD I suppose...
I am not sure, but now very curious, how much more decoding power is
needed
for the new 'mpeg4' (it is some special variant ?)
Its a special variant of MPEG-4 called ACV H.264. There are wery many levels
of MPEG-4 and it is
level 10 that will be used accoring to the EBU technical web pages (one of
the best sources
for good information about the subject)
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_home.html
The MPEG-4 codecs which exists for computers is probably not level 10 but
some earlier lower levels.
, indeed may have
to buy a new PC for that, let's wait until these cards are in the shops...
There is an other reason too, not to want the mpeg4 decoder chip on the
card,
as we have seen with SkyStar1 and the TI chip (7110) I do NOT want the
transport stream f*ced up, that is why I use the Nova now, clean TS.
MPEG-4 is 4 times more complex to decode compared to MPEG-2 and in addition
to
that HD at good quality will probably increase the demand for CPU speed even
more.
What the EBU papers indicates is that the CPU probably must be 4 times
faster than
the CPU requirement for MPEG-2
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_302-sunna.pdf
Could be but so far I dont think there only has been tests by Premiere
and Sky in the new format ( MPEG-4 part 10 & DVB-S2) and those tests
has not been available for the public. |
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