I'm working on a Geocache. As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
Dale
Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
16 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Dale Atkin » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:11 am
- Dale Atkin
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Melita Kennedy » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:11 am
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:56:03 GMT, "Dale Atkin" <labrador1@ibycus.com>
wrote:
The math will depend on what map projection the grid system is using. If
you're using UTM, here's a link from Google:
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/UsefulData/UTMFormulas.HTM
that has some information, but quick look doesn't show the right equation.
You want to find the convergence angle. I know the equations are either in
TM8358.2 or TM8358.1. Both are available at
http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/pubs.html
Melita
wrote:
I'm working on a Geocache. As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
Dale
The math will depend on what map projection the grid system is using. If
you're using UTM, here's a link from Google:
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/UsefulData/UTMFormulas.HTM
that has some information, but quick look doesn't show the right equation.
You want to find the convergence angle. I know the equations are either in
TM8358.2 or TM8358.1. Both are available at
http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/pubs.html
Melita
- Melita Kennedy
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Guest » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:11 am
isnt it just grid north = magnetic declination + true north ...?
sounds too simple
matt
sounds too simple
matt
- Guest
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by steve robertson » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:11 am
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:56:03 GMT, "Dale Atkin"
<labrador1@ibycus.com> wrote:
If it is a conformal projection (like TM is), a decent
approximation is the difference in longitude times the sin
of the latitude. That will be good to a couple of minutes
of arc, much better than any magnetic compass (since we do
not know declination to better than a degree or so).
steve
<labrador1@ibycus.com> wrote:
I'm working on a Geocache. As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
Dale
If it is a conformal projection (like TM is), a decent
approximation is the difference in longitude times the sin
of the latitude. That will be good to a couple of minutes
of arc, much better than any magnetic compass (since we do
not know declination to better than a degree or so).
steve
- steve robertson
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Heinrich Pfeifer » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:11 am
<web1000@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:1106977563.881673.157090@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
too simple, indeed. No, grid north has nothing to do with magnetic
declination.
True north points towards the geographic north pole.
Grid north points along the northing grid lines of the projection used, and
the difference to true north depends on the projection *and* on the present
position. I have no fomula available, sorry.
Magnetic north points towards the magnetic north pole. The difference to
true north is small in many countries, e.g. in most parts of Europe, but it
can be up to 30 degrees or more in other parts of the worls, e.g. America.
And, if you are close to the magnetic north pole (Hudson Bay, I think) then
the magnetic north is useless at all.
Here is a link for calculation of magnetic declination at your location:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/magfield.shtml
--
Heinrich
http://www.gartrip.de
mail: new<at>gartrip.de
news:1106977563.881673.157090@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
isnt it just grid north = magnetic declination + true north ...?
sounds too simple
too simple, indeed. No, grid north has nothing to do with magnetic
declination.
True north points towards the geographic north pole.
Grid north points along the northing grid lines of the projection used, and
the difference to true north depends on the projection *and* on the present
position. I have no fomula available, sorry.
Magnetic north points towards the magnetic north pole. The difference to
true north is small in many countries, e.g. in most parts of Europe, but it
can be up to 30 degrees or more in other parts of the worls, e.g. America.
And, if you are close to the magnetic north pole (Hudson Bay, I think) then
the magnetic north is useless at all.
Here is a link for calculation of magnetic declination at your location:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/magfield.shtml
--
Heinrich
http://www.gartrip.de
mail: new<at>gartrip.de
- Heinrich Pfeifer
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by KBH » Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:44 pm
I'm working on a Geocache. As part of the exercise, one has to calculate
an offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I
know I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like
to do it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I
don't know how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is
strangely uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful
suggestions? I should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
Well, you can calculate an ellipsoidal direction inverse between latitudes
and longitudes, convert the latitudes and longitudes to (UTM I suppose)
grid, calculate a grid direction inverse using basic trig on the rectangular
coordinates, and subtract one direction from the other...
Of course the GPS unit might give an accurate direction inverse between
latitudes and longitudes and will convert the latitudes and longitudes to
UTM grid...
http://pages.prodigy.net/halsteadinvest/kbh-gps.htm
- KBH
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Guest » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:36 pm
hmm .. 18 Degrees here ... might as well toss that compass sucker ...
Matt
Matt
- Guest
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Wayne R. » Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:10 am
As I understand the function of a magnetic compass, it doesn't
actually point to the Magentic North Pole, but aligns itself parallel
to the local magnetic flux lines.
So, an internal GPS declination table will let you know what the
usable offset would be while using a GPS - but a plain vanilla compass
could show something very different. The kicker: Both could be
accurate, but the users would have to depend on their understanding of
what they're looking at.
Very cool: http://geomag.usgs.gov/flash/declination_fla.html
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:11:19 +0100, "Heinrich Pfeifer"
<nws@gartrip.de> wrote:
actually point to the Magentic North Pole, but aligns itself parallel
to the local magnetic flux lines.
So, an internal GPS declination table will let you know what the
usable offset would be while using a GPS - but a plain vanilla compass
could show something very different. The kicker: Both could be
accurate, but the users would have to depend on their understanding of
what they're looking at.
Very cool: http://geomag.usgs.gov/flash/declination_fla.html
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:11:19 +0100, "Heinrich Pfeifer"
<nws@gartrip.de> wrote:
Magnetic north points towards the magnetic north pole. The difference to
true north is small in many countries, e.g. in most parts of Europe, but it
can be up to 30 degrees or more in other parts of the worls, e.g. America.
And, if you are close to the magnetic north pole (Hudson Bay, I think) then
the magnetic north is useless at all.
- Wayne R.
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Annapress » Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:10 am
As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
If you're in the USA, take a look at a USGS 7.5' topo map. It shows the
differences between grid north, true north, and magnetic north. Magnetic north
could have moved slightly in the years since the map was produced, but the
relation between grid north and true north remains constant.
Steve
- Annapress
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Graham W » Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:38 am
Dale Atkin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing the bleeding obvious here.
Grid north is parallel to the line of longitude up the centre of the UM
zone.
True north is parallel to the line of longitude you're sitting on.
If you're at a pole, the angle between these two lines will be equal to
the difference in angular longitude. The angle will be equal to 1 x
(long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>)
If you're at the equator, they're going to be parallel. The angle will
be equal to 0 x (long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>)
There's some function for latitudes in between which will tell you what
factor, call it Z, to apply to the same basic equation such that the
angle will be equal to Z x (long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>).
Without even drawing up complicated diagreams and working it all out,
I'm pretty confident that Z = sin (latitude).
I'm working on a Geocache. As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
Maybe I'm missing the bleeding obvious here.
Grid north is parallel to the line of longitude up the centre of the UM
zone.
True north is parallel to the line of longitude you're sitting on.
If you're at a pole, the angle between these two lines will be equal to
the difference in angular longitude. The angle will be equal to 1 x
(long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>)
If you're at the equator, they're going to be parallel. The angle will
be equal to 0 x (long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>)
There's some function for latitudes in between which will tell you what
factor, call it Z, to apply to the same basic equation such that the
angle will be equal to Z x (long<zone centre> - long<point of interest>).
Without even drawing up complicated diagreams and working it all out,
I'm pretty confident that Z = sin (latitude).
- Graham W
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by David L. Wilson » Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:32 pm
The thing that is bing discussed is known as "grid convergence". See
http://www.tpub.com/content/USMC/mcr316 ... 61a_70.htm
(Go down first column until the subject starts.)
Most conversion programs like Corpscon (free and recommended) will output
when converting.
A more technical reference is
ftp://164.214.2.65/pub/gig/tm8358.2/TM8358_2.pdf
A related topic is the "scale factor" which corrects for distances in UTM.
http://www.tpub.com/content/USMC/mcr316 ... 61a_70.htm
(Go down first column until the subject starts.)
Most conversion programs like Corpscon (free and recommended) will output
when converting.
A more technical reference is
ftp://164.214.2.65/pub/gig/tm8358.2/TM8358_2.pdf
A related topic is the "scale factor" which corrects for distances in UTM.
- David L. Wilson
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Karl Pollak » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:00 am
x-no-archive: yes
"Heinrich Pfeifer" <nws@gartrip.de> wrote:
That should read "magnetic SOUTH" points towards the magnetic north pole.
--
Greetings from Lotusland
"Heinrich Pfeifer" <nws@gartrip.de> wrote:
Magnetic north points towards the magnetic north pole.
That should read "magnetic SOUTH" points towards the magnetic north pole.
--
Greetings from Lotusland
- Karl Pollak
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Gary S. » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:21 pm
On 30 Jan 2005 03:38:49 GMT, annapress@aol.com.org (Annapress) wrote:
The sketch showing their relation should not be relied on for angle.
Instead, use the numbers printed.
Also, the map gives the declination for Magnetic North vs True North,
and also the rate of change in declination as of when the map was
produced. If it has been more than 10 years, it would be best to use
an up-to-date resource, perhaps one of the web sites mentioned by
others.
Also, before you get too deep into the difference between grid North
and True North, you might figure a ballpark idea of the discrepancy
over the distance you are doing. If it is rather small, you might not
need to bother depending on the overall accuracy of what you doing.
If you think it through, the difference will increase as you travel
from the Equator to the Pole.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
If you're in the USA, take a look at a USGS 7.5' topo map. It shows the
differences between grid north, true north, and magnetic north. Magnetic north
could have moved slightly in the years since the map was produced, but the
relation between grid north and true north remains constant.
One caveat:
The sketch showing their relation should not be relied on for angle.
Instead, use the numbers printed.
Also, the map gives the declination for Magnetic North vs True North,
and also the rate of change in declination as of when the map was
produced. If it has been more than 10 years, it would be best to use
an up-to-date resource, perhaps one of the web sites mentioned by
others.
Also, before you get too deep into the difference between grid North
and True North, you might figure a ballpark idea of the discrepancy
over the distance you are doing. If it is rather small, you might not
need to bother depending on the overall accuracy of what you doing.
If you think it through, the difference will increase as you travel
from the Equator to the Pole.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
- Gary S.
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by sawers » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:05 am
.........a wee thing they taught us back in the pre gps days was 'mag to
grid, get rid.......................grid to mag, add'........of course you
have to know the amount to 'get rid' or 'add'........so when converting from
magnetic bearing to grid bearing, subtract the declination....and reverse
for magnetic to grid conversion............using prismatic compasses over
distances typically less than ten miles in a leg, it was not worth bothering
with for normal nav purposes.
"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
news:t6mf0191n1r0ibhctnl0vivo7e9i0mtg77@4ax.com...
grid, get rid.......................grid to mag, add'........of course you
have to know the amount to 'get rid' or 'add'........so when converting from
magnetic bearing to grid bearing, subtract the declination....and reverse
for magnetic to grid conversion............using prismatic compasses over
distances typically less than ten miles in a leg, it was not worth bothering
with for normal nav purposes.
"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
news:t6mf0191n1r0ibhctnl0vivo7e9i0mtg77@4ax.com...
On 30 Jan 2005 03:38:49 GMT, annapress@aol.com.org (Annapress) wrote:
As part of the exercise, one has to calculate an
offset from a point on a particular bearing (relative to true north). I
know
I could just use some built in function for this, but I'd really like to
do
it long hand (better workout for the brain). The only thing is, I don't
know
how to convert between grid north and true north, and google is
strangely
uncooperative... Anyone have any good links? Or helpful suggestions? I
should I just cheat, and tell the GPS to do it for me?
If you're in the USA, take a look at a USGS 7.5' topo map. It shows the
differences between grid north, true north, and magnetic north. Magnetic
north
could have moved slightly in the years since the map was produced, but the
relation between grid north and true north remains constant.
One caveat:
The sketch showing their relation should not be relied on for angle.
Instead, use the numbers printed.
Also, the map gives the declination for Magnetic North vs True North,
and also the rate of change in declination as of when the map was
produced. If it has been more than 10 years, it would be best to use
an up-to-date resource, perhaps one of the web sites mentioned by
others.
Also, before you get too deep into the difference between grid North
and True North, you might figure a ballpark idea of the discrepancy
over the distance you are doing. If it is rather small, you might not
need to bother depending on the overall accuracy of what you doing.
If you think it through, the difference will increase as you travel
from the Equator to the Pole.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
- sawers
Re: Grid North vs True North? Calculating difference?
by Gary S. » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:13 am
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:05:46 GMT, "sawers" <sawers2@earthlink.net>
wrote:
declination line you happen to be on. Here in New England the
declination ranges from 14 to 17 degrees one way, and in the Cascades
it is about 15 degrees the other way. I have also seen advice from
people living near the zero line that declination is not a major
thing.
Many people hiking will do everything in magnetic bearings, even
drawing parallel lines aligning with MN. As long as your whole group
is consistent, this works out fine.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
wrote:
"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
news:t6mf0191n1r0ibhctnl0vivo7e9i0mtg77@4ax.com...
On 30 Jan 2005 03:38:49 GMT, annapress@aol.com.org (Annapress) wrote:
If you're in the USA, take a look at a USGS 7.5' topo map. It shows the
differences between grid north, true north, and magnetic north. Magnetic
north
could have moved slightly in the years since the map was produced, but the
relation between grid north and true north remains constant.
One caveat:
The sketch showing their relation should not be relied on for angle.
Instead, use the numbers printed.
Also, the map gives the declination for Magnetic North vs True North,
and also the rate of change in declination as of when the map was
produced. If it has been more than 10 years, it would be best to use
an up-to-date resource, perhaps one of the web sites mentioned by
others.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
........a wee thing they taught us back in the pre gps days was 'mag to
grid, get rid.......................grid to mag, add'........of course you
have to know the amount to 'get rid' or 'add'........so when converting from
magnetic bearing to grid bearing, subtract the declination....and reverse
for magnetic to grid conversion............using prismatic compasses over
distances typically less than ten miles in a leg, it was not worth bothering
with for normal nav purposes.
The little sayings like that are specific to which side of the zero
declination line you happen to be on. Here in New England the
declination ranges from 14 to 17 degrees one way, and in the Cascades
it is about 15 degrees the other way. I have also seen advice from
people living near the zero line that declination is not a major
thing.
Many people hiking will do everything in magnetic bearings, even
drawing parallel lines aligning with MN. As long as your whole group
is consistent, this works out fine.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
- Gary S.
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